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Wednesday, 22 April, 2009

Posted by Mandee on April 22, 2009   |   24 Comments

Rest day

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

24 responses to “Wednesday, 22 April, 2009”

  1. Patrick says:

    Hmmm … looks like our current administration has “forgotten” our fallen.

    If the President in his role as Commander in Chief wants to change interrogation policy … okay. I don’t agree with it, but I can see how such a policy change would need to come from the top. These are the decision that come with that pay grade. My question is why make this information public. Shouldn’t we be keeping such information secret, otherwise we are providing aid to our enemies. There is no reason a detained terrorist should know the limits of our “enhanced interrogation” techniques. All the better, if he thinks we are capable of the worst, most painful possible torture methods. As a matter of national security this comes dangerously close to treason.

    TREASON – This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

    The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort.

  2. Michael says:

    15 Something minutes for Reverse Burpees…Girls kicked ass at this!

  3. klowe says:

    Finally feel good enough to get back into it

    BS + DU’s

    3 X 5 – 315 immediately followed by 20 DU’s after each set
    – done in under 15 min

    Strength feels good but conditioning took a huge hit from the 5 days of virus.

    K

  4. Daniel says:

    I’d rather be in a terroist attack in LA then to lve in a country in which we tortue, lock you up and throw away the key and wiretap our citizens. The way Obama is handling international diplomacy now — with a handshake, an open ear and a smile — is more effective at stopping terrorism then a whole battalion of waterboarding, tortuing, government contracted, interrogatores.

    Fear, hatred and even cruelty is common in human nature as evidenced by history when two foriegn and unenducated(about each other) cultures are forced together. However history has shown that as cultures acclimate to each other, tensions subside and tolerance and even assimilation ensues. The U.S. is one big running social experiment in such diversity integration. However, now communities are tied together globally via the internet, cable news, commercialization and colonialization. So diversity tolerance, understanding and even limited compromise must be practiced by our leaders of every stripe ( political, social, and commercial ) so that we can regain some respect in the world.

    This will take decades of interaction, but we have to start somewhere. I believe Obama was right to release the tortue memos, and I believe he was right to loudly decry the use of tortue as a U.S. policy. Perhaps it was neccessary to tortue to stop this planned terrorist attack, but that can never be proven since an alternative method wasn’t implemented. However, tt is besides the point right now to argue if tortue was or was not neccessary because it did happen and now is the time to stop it.

    Respect is the currency we are short on now. To get respect we must give it. You can respect a man if you disagree with him. The same is true for the cultures and policies of a country. However, you will not like somebody you do not respect You will not like a country you do not respect. Regained respect for the United States will not come at the barrell of a gun or under a gallon of water poured on the heads of those who disagree with us. It will come with a handshake and an understanding ear.

  5. Katie says:

    I hear you Daniel, but the rule of respect works when you are dealing with people who think like we do and are considered “humane”. An understanding ear and a handshake with a terrorist whose mission is to destroy America as we know it will only portray weakness and ignorance as a country. With regard to torture, what alternative do you suggest ?

  6. spl6hrc says:

    Actually, Daniel, the terrorist in question resisted ALL forms of interrogation until ‘enhanced’ techniques were used. At which point he spilled the beans…and the west coast’s tallest building still stands!

    I respect your view, just don’t agree with it. When our President acts weak he will be perceived as weak. Very hard, ruthless people will absolutely try to capitalize on that perceived weakness.

    For my part, I do not care why they don’t like or respect me. All I need to know is that they would very happily torture my children. I’d rather feel guilty for ‘over doing it’ then know that I failed to prevent their pain.

  7. Russell says:

    Daniel, am I to understand your first point to mean that you would rather U.S. citizens die in terrorist attacks than have a terrorist tortured for our protection?

    I’m willing to bet that you, or maybe just others that agree with you would consider the following acts against US detainees to be “torture”.

    – Blindfolding the detainee and then submerging them repeatedly in deep water to illicit a fear of drowning
    – use of perpetual sleep deprivation and starvation to break down the detainees will
    – exposing detainees to riot-control gasses that burn the lungs and cause violent coughing and vomiting spells
    – Force-feeding to the point of vomiting
    – Force-hydration to the point of vomiting

    The funny part is that these are all commonly used in the training of US troops and I have experienced all of them myself. Considering these acts too “inhumane” to be used against murderers goes hand in hand with our current policy of also giving them the rights of due process reserved for US citizens. In short, terrorists now have more rights, and more freedom from hardship than our soldiers.

    “So diversity tolerance, understanding and even limited compromise must be practiced by our leaders of every stripe ( political, social, and commercial ) so that we can regain some respect in the world.”

    I like to refer to this as the pussification of America.

  8. Brad says:

    See Russell you have to realize that Daniel just lives in the bubble that the most Americans do. Everyone lives there normal stress and worry free life. Forgetting why it is stress and worry free. How soon people forget what these peolpe that were in prison in cuba are responsible for. Not only that but how they treat there American prisoners. Forget so called “harsh” interview tactics. They just slowy cut there heads off with dull knifes. Then sent video to America of it. Yeah those kinda of people need breaks in life.

    Once again this is America, and because of the brave men and women that protect it. Everybody has a right to voice their own opinon. For people like Daniel its going to take a war on our homeland to show the true mindset of the people I used to fight for living. Maybe then will America be like it used to be.

    “Never Surrender”

  9. Brad says:

    One more thing and I am done. America did not get to become the worlds super power by shaking peoples hands and listening to what they got to say. They did it by dominanting in 95% of the conflicts it has ever been and making people listen to us. Not matter what it took. If Obama would have never released classified documents this would have never been a problem and everybody would have continued living there lives. Sometimes the general public not knowing is the best way for it to be.

  10. Craig Herr says:

    I dont have the time or energy to write a long response. Suffice it to say, I strongly disagree with Daniel on this. I will leave the retorts to those that have sacrificed and are putting their lives on the line everyday so I have the opportunity to live the life I do. I might even disagree with the war and some of our policies around the world but I support what this Country was built on and respect the men and women that have fought (even died ) for the freedoms I enjoy and try not to take for granted every single day!!!

  11. Zak says:

    Having been to SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) school, I can tell you that these methods are in place because they work. 72 hours of no sleep, being dunked in water, slapped around, being made to salute fake flags while naked and being sprayed with cold water, only one bowl of rice to eat, interrogations, being shoved in a dog kennel, and just generally humiliated create an environment that is just not that pleasant. Come to think of it, water boarding sounds like the easier route.

  12. Jimmy says:

    terrorists don’t get rights! yesterday there was a suicide bombing that killed 14 people, the bomber had just been released from gitmo.

  13. Daniel says:

    The argument here for torture is the same argument our enemies use for terrorism.

    “They don’t deserve rights/ understanding/ rule of law/ to live/ etc. because they don’t like us”. I’m paraphrasing of course, but an eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind.

    To argue whether or not torture or terrorism is effective is like a game of tic-tac-toe. It is a game that cannot be won. There will always be arguments for and against on both sides. There is one constant though with both techniques, one constant that has been held steady through hundreds of years of recorded history. Both methods are despicable. Both methods are despised and regarded negatively by history. Do we want to be a nation of torturers? Is that what the legacy of the United States of America should be?

    Terrorism and torture are not products of our time. We only need to look to history to resolve our current disputes. We can either:

    A: Genocide. Kill all of our enemies, squash all dissent, and burn their history books of so as to wipe all mention, all record of their existence out of the minds of man for all time.

    B: Come to a general understanding and resolve to live in peace.

    Some seem to think there is a 3rd option but it is a myth:
    C: Force others to think the way I think because I’m right and they are wrong. Elements of both side have this mindset, but “those whose minds that are changed against their will are of the same opinion still”.

    War is necessary sometimes. Fighting is necessary, but there must come a time for understanding and healing. I think that time is now. Someone has to make that first step. Why can’t it be us? If this doesn’t work then we can always go back to torture.

  14. Patrick says:

    Let me get this straight,

    “KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA.”

    “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’

    After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

    Well, I say we won that particular little game of tic-tac-toe.

  15. Krista says:

    100 Inverted Burpees for time 11:22
    ( I thought it was fun! Maybe I was just excited that my head quit hurting for a few minutes)

  16. Clint says:

    Ah our warfighters chime in. Torture is defined by the government and lawmakers so is interrogation and eleveted interrogation. These are decided on by a group of lawyers, the same with how and when to take a life in combat.

    It is so unique how the military blood is so one sided on interrogation and many of the American populous is on the other side. Perhaps because like stated earlier by my fellow Jarhead, Americans have thier Starbucks and Mcdonalds but have absolutely no idea with what kind of people we are dealing.

    Daniel we are dealing with people at a given notice that would absolutely love to kick in your door, drag your family out of your house and force your family to watch your head be lobbed off. There is no need to describe the extend in which your health would be violated by the enemy for no other reason besides you are not a Muslim Arab with beliefs in line with thiers. You are what is called a noncombatant, we draw those differences the people we talk about do not draw any differences we are all the enemy to them.

    War is a nasty nasty concept, however the blanket of freedom for which keeps our citizens protected comes with a very heavy price tag. Your freedoms to speak your mind are paid for with young American’s blood on the daily basis whom are engaged in rooting our percieved threats all over the planet. Iraq makes the news because it is a catch phrase for the media, what truly goes on in that country and places like that…will never be put on television. The reason why is, American has and never will handle the truth. Even if they were given the entire truth, the majority of them would carry on like Hindu Cows without a care in the world.

    I really wish you could walk in our shoes for a month in Afghanistan and Iraq. I assure you, torture might not be high on your morality list but seeing the results of what these people do would be shocking.

    You should do a search on Iraqi civilian torture. Pretty much daily they find numerous people that have been fully tortured, genitals removed, fingures arms, burns etc…the good stuff. They finish the day with a AK shot to the temple after they have no further use of the victim. Men, women, children…..daily. Did I say every day.

  17. nathan says:

    The “enhanced” techniques we have used on combatens are nothing compared to what they do to our soldiers. Is anything we have ever done to them, remotely compare to Daniel Pearl, etc…

  18. Russell says:

    Daniel,

    “To argue whether or not torture or terrorism is effective is like a game of tic-tac-toe. It is a game that cannot be won. There will always be arguments for and against on both sides. There is one constant though with both techniques, one constant that has been held steady through hundreds of years of recorded history. Both methods are despicable.”

    The article from this post provides very convincing evidence that Torture( if you want to call it that) works. You have not provided a counter-point other than to say that it’s not pleasant- something no one has disagreed with here. I don’t care if iit’s unpopular or you can find arguments against it, I care that it has now been proven to save lives when used intelligently and effectively.

    as for the rest,

    I disagree with your argument based on your assumption that all ideas are equally worthy of recognition and legitimacy in a diplomatic setting. We aren’t dealing with a poor, marginalized group of people that just needs to “talk it out”. Our enemy wants us dead or under the control of sharia law, and their religious convictions tell them that causing the former gets them an eternity in virgin-laden paradise. If these people had a rational, legitimate case to be made, diplomacy might work. Until then, that route is exactly what Chamberlain tried with Nazi Germany- another group who’s ideas were not worthy of recognition.

    In short- Discussing diplomacy with Muslim extremists is like discussing abortion rights with john paul II. You are wasting your time.

    “Some seem to think there is a 3rd option but it is a myth:
    C: Force others to think the way I think because I’m right and they are wrong. Elements of both side have this mindset, but “those whose minds that are changed against their will are of the same opinion still”.

    We aren’t in the business of changing minds. That’s what you are trying to say we should do. We are in the business of killing and capturing those who wish us harm.
    This is back to your assumption that all ideas are created equal. Sometimes, we are right, and others are wrong. What is right isn’t determined by Consensus, world opinion, or changes in respect. It is determined by us, and as members of this sovereign nation, we should be the only opinion that matters.

  19. klowe says:

    Nothing really to add here except to add emphasis to the already made point.

    Diplomacy in ANY FORM does not work with extremists that are taught from birth that America and Americans must be destroyed in any way, shape, or form. Irrational people cannot be dealt with rationally. They simply must be removed from the playing field.

    One can dig deeper and say that it is our American policies that are shaping the hatred in these people and I shout BullShit!!! Study history and read the Koran….These people want “infidels” dead at any cost because what “Allah” teaches.

    Once again….Irrational people cannot be dealt with rationally. Extract information via any means and then marginalize them.

    Oh yeah…one more thing. Pakistan has nukes and now has a government that is “folding” to shiria law because of repeated beheadings and assasinations in the Swat valley.

    Last. Irrational people with access to nuclear weapons cannot be dealt with rationally. They must be caught, information extracted, and then “marginalized”.

    End of story.

    K

  20. Russell says:

    oh yeah, one more thing:

    “The argument here for torture is the same argument our enemies use for terrorism.
    ‘They don’t deserve rights/ understanding/ rule of law/ to live/ etc. because they don’t like us’. ”

    I am not making the same argument as our enemies. I am claiming that these interregation techniques ( which are different in purpose from torture) save American lives. Our enemies torture and decapitate captured Americans because it is religiously acceptable based on their interpretation of the Koran, and they know that we don’t stomach that type of violence well and might just pick up and go home.

    Terrorists do not deserve the rights of our court system because not only are then not US citizens, but they are enemies of our country. This has nothing to do with them liking us. Even our soldiers are not granted rights to US courts. We have long recognized the need to separate crimes of war from civil crimes… I guess until now.

  21. Nathan Judge says:

    HAHAHAHA daniel…… good lord. i disagree completely. Obama’s method of dealing with things is just making the terrorists laugh at us.

  22. Nathan Judge says:

    and on the torture issue, who cares. they’re terrorists. they don’t deserve the same treatment as US citizens.

  23. Nathan Judge says:

    understanding ear- “oh i know you just killed thousands of americans, but its okay. i know your beliefs are different than mine.” then the president shakes hands with the terrorist who is then set free. 3 months later, they attack again. well at least they respect us now….

  24. Patrick says:

    Russell wrote:
    “Our enemies torture and decapitate captured Americans because it is religiously acceptable based on their interpretation of the Koran, and they know that we don’t stomach that type of violence well and might just pick up and go home.”

    Worked in Somalia back in Oct. 93. After Operation Gothic Serpent went down the crapper, Clinton had us out of there before the end of the year.

    Daniel wrote:
    “Respect is the currency we are short on now. To get respect we must give it. You can respect a man if you disagree with him. The same is true for the cultures and policies of a country. However, you will not like somebody you do not respect You will not like a country you do not respect. Regained respect for the United States will not come at the barrell of a gun or under a gallon of water poured on the heads of those who disagree with us. It will come with a handshake and an understanding ear.”

    So, for 15 yrs now the Somali have been left to their own devices. Just look at the “respectable” place Mogadishu is today. Piracy is their only export.